Ordo ab Chao

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Ordo ab Chao

Postby Greg Deman » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:57 pm

I'm not sure how to approach this subject, it's something I've been thinking about for a while now and it's layered on top of other things that I've taken on board which are not mainstream thinking. So I'll just plough ahead with it and see where it goes.

Ordo ab Chao or Order out of Chaos is most commonly known as problem-reaction-solution. For those who haven't heard this before it is understood as: first create a problem, wait for people to react demanding a solution, and then provide the solution that you wanted to install in the first place. A form of manipulative control over the populace where a ruling class get the people to demand what they already want to bring in but making it seem like it's not their idea so the people are onboard with the changes. It's a slogan connected with Freemasonry. Anyway I'm sure most of you have already know this.

This has never sat well with me because it seems to refer to something else, not sure why, so this is what I think it actually refers to:

We know that the elites in society have secrets that they don't share with the people and we know they guard those secrets in order to manipulate and control. Behind all that we suspect that they know things about life, about natural laws, and about the origins of life and history that give them an edge.

If we look at living systems we see complex, highly engineered systems that are so far advanced in technology that we can barely grasp or replicate their design and efficiency. It is everywhere all around us, from every living cell up to the most highly advanced species on the planet, humans. From the flight pattern of the Dragonfly to the largest mammal, the Whale, with its complex navigation systems, breathing apparatus and ability to thrust its mass above the water we see engineering principles we can only dream about. To date we have not achieved anything close to these kind of designs. It's the same with DNA, a 4 digit complex code with an inbuilt error correction and repair mechanism way more advanced than any 2 digit programmes we have created to date.

This isn't some kind of dewy eyed nonsense it's a fact, what we know about living systems now is like something out of a futuristic sci-fi movie. We know every living cell is like a factory with a rotary power plant, an energy network, a signally network, molecular machines that form a transport network on inbuilt highways, an assembly line that churns out proteins, the basic building blocks, and behind it all is the advanced IT systems that keep the whole thing running. Basically you can look at any modern factory and it doesn't come anywhere close to the technology and efficiency of the most basic cell.

There is nothing new under the sun.

We can deduce from this that everywhere in living nature is order, it is the most fundamental principle of design, and everywhere in inert nature is chaos, or entropy.

This may seem like abstract information but I think it has very real consequences for our everyday living. If we take the principle that all living systems tend towards order we can apply it onto what may seem like trivial circumstances.

As an example which do you prefer, a clean and tidy house where everything is in place or a dirty/messy house where everything is all over the place? For most people it's obviously the former unless you are a slob then you are quite happy to live in the latter. If you're a clean and tidy person then living with a slob is a nightmare.

We can take this further by looking at another example, music, we can sense the complexity and design of music by how it makes us feel. Some music just feels like its utter shite while other music seems to lift us up to a higher plane.

My examples here aren't very good and I'm probably not explaining this very well but basically what I'm trying to say is that we tend towards order and that this is a pull factor which makes life more efficient and economical. The more we practise the intention towards order the more we improve individually until ultimately we connect with the vast intelligence that underlies all living systems. This is the ultimate self-improvement system.

But there is also a converse to this, along with living systems there is death and decay as part of the process. Systems need to die before new systems can emerge from the now released molecules. And so it is the same in our everyday life. We need to let systems crash and burn and for some people this is their goal in life, to be the agents of death and decay. Not in a lazy slob kind of way but as an active process to release the old system in preparation for the new. These people are commonly referred to as psychopaths but they have a place in the overall order.

Anyway that's my rant so if anyone can give some feedback or related links I would be grateful.
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Re: Ordo ab Chao

Postby EddieS » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:30 am

Great post. I'm not the best wordsmith around. But I am fond of the subject. So I will have a crack.


Too much to address everything. So I will just a dress this bit briefly. As it seems at the crux of much of what you are saying.

We can deduce from this that everywhere in living nature is order, it is the most fundamental principle of design, and everywhere in inert nature is chaos, or entropy.


There is no inert nature. 'no thing' cannot exist. If no thing did exist, it would be nothing. So it can't. Nature abhors a vacuum. There is as you say, positive and negative growth. Or order and chaos. But wherever there is order, chaos is embedded inside it, around it, or on its surface. Wherever there is chaos, there is order embedded. Your perfect mirror surface, is a war zone of microbes. Your sterile surface is in constant strain from casimir forces, and quantum effects.

Reality embraces both sides of the paradox simultaneously. Always. It favours neither. Neither can exist alone. They define each other every step of the way. So you could say chaos is order, and order is chaos. This is your definition of chaos and order btw. Some other school of thought may see what you define as chaos as perfect harmony and order.

This concept is long hinted at in various ways. Yin yang, samsara, god and the devil and so on.

As far as the irreducible complexity in natural systems poking holes in evolution. Its just one such anomaly. Flagella motors for instance are a more readily studied system than a whales navigation. Due to apparent simplicity. Intelligent design, or evolution, it all fails to prove the unprovable. Or to know the unknowable.

Mystery will always be with us. Mystery carries a unique charm. In this way, not knowing can be the greater knowledge.

I recommend reading the upanishads of you love contemplating paradoxes.
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Re: Ordo ab Chao

Postby Greg Deman » Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:06 pm

Sorry about the delayed response here Eddie, it's been a hectic week and I didn't have time to get back to you.

EddieS wrote: There is no inert nature. 'no thing' cannot exist. If no thing did exist, it would be nothing. So it can't. Nature abhors a vacuum.


I'm making the distinction between living and non-living things and that there are different rules for each. For example there is no order in a river. It just follows least resistance and has no “pull” to make any particular pattern. Same with a rock it just forms whatever shape the forces of nature inflict on it.

Order is an active process that only applies to living things or is a result of living things and it leads to structure and function, a river or a rock has no particular structure and no function. Living systems do so they operate under a different set of rules.

There are obviously different levels of order, like say comparing a child's drawing up to say a Carravaggio. We can distinguish levels of order by complexity and efficiency, often there's a trade off between them but just as a general rule a higher structure is more complex and a higher function is more efficient.

We know living systems have very high levels of order, of magnitudes higher than the results of living systems.

EddieS wrote: There is as you say, positive and negative growth. Or order and chaos. But wherever there is order, chaos is embedded inside it, around it, or on its surface. Wherever there is chaos, there is order embedded. Your perfect mirror surface, is a war zone of microbes. Your sterile surface is in constant strain from casimir forces, and quantum effects.

Reality embraces both sides of the paradox simultaneously. Always. It favours neither. Neither can exist alone. They define each other every step of the way. So you could say chaos is order, and order is chaos. This is your definition of chaos and order btw. Some other school of thought may see what you define as chaos as perfect harmony and order.

This concept is long hinted at in various ways. Yin yang, samsara, god and the devil and so on.


Yes this is very true, it's the duality of the physical world, nothing exists without its opposite and sometimes they co-exist in proximity.

EddieS wrote: As far as the irreducible complexity in natural systems poking holes in evolution. Its just one such anomaly. Flagella motors for instance are a more readily studied system than a whales navigation. Due to apparent simplicity. Intelligent design, or evolution, it all fails to prove the unprovable. Or to know the unknowable.

Mystery will always be with us. Mystery carries a unique charm. In this way, not knowing can be the greater knowledge.


This is where it gets controversial because people have strong opinions on this so I can only go with my opinion and how I see it.

I don't believe the PTB actually believe in evolution other than as something to feed to the masses. They seem to have their own rituals, secret knowledge, codes and deities. Evolution is constantly being pushed as something it isn't to everyone else. It is taught uncritically in schools and the evidence for it, or lack of it, is either exaggerated or simply avoided. It's usually taught with illustrations with various species showing arrows pointing from one to another, or some small similar bone structure between to species or the famous one of primates gradually evolving into a human. They fail to point out that there aren't any actual fossil records to show any of this and it's all just speculation.

Dawkins is another example of this, he constantly refers to evolution as a “scientific fact” despite knowing that it's not, or at least he should know that it's not. No self-respecting scientist would refer to it as a fact even if they believe in evolution. It has none of the scientific rigour we would expect to see for it have that kind of status. Yet as the most vocal and well known atheist he somehow gets away with selling snake-oil like this, something that should completely discredit anything else he says after that.

So it really comes down to choice, it's up to the individual to decide their perspective and see where it takes them. Either you believe in evolution and see life as a result of unguided Darwinian processes or you believe in design and see life as the result of a designer or some kind of intelligent process.

I take the perspective that it is the result of design and so look at living systems as the result of a very high level of design. From there conclude that there is a vast intelligence underlying all living systems on a scale we have not even come close to in our designs. Who or what this creative intelligence is obviously an unanswerable question but we can conclude some of the characteristics of this creator based on what we see in living systems. We already have a field of science, Systems Biology, looking at living systems from an engineering perspective so why not look at living systems for the common characteristics of a designer?

Getting back to the original topic of “order out of chaos” I would argue that this is a characteristic of the designer (I'm using the word "designer" very loosely here, I'm not talking about religion or a particular god or gods). And that we as humans replicate this process in our designs and that we have a particular reaction to higher levels of order.

EddieS wrote: I recommend reading the upanishads of you love contemplating paradoxes.


I will look into these, thanks.
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Re: Ordo ab Chao

Postby EddieS » Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:43 am

Whenever I hear the name Dawkins, and his position on evolution mentioned, I think of the Bill Hicks joke: "What does an Atheist scream when he cums? Oh, chemical chance! Chemical chance!”

:lol:
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