Why Composting is Stupid

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Why Composting is Stupid

Postby mongolking » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:08 pm

I live out in the woods and grow my own food. I also try and make good use of everything - I don't believe in wasting anything. Nature doesn't either. But there is one subject that consistently strikes me as the foolest way of wasting your time, and that is composting - at least, the way it is presented to newbies.

The standard approach seems to be to build some kind of composting container - usually a barrel or box - and then fill it with organic waste. One then must carefully mix in the right combination of green and brown material, along with shredded paper and other waste, make sure the whole lot is properly rotated, aerated and watered, and then after so many months, what remains needs to be ferried out to where it is needed. Anyone spot the double handling? Anyone also see the necessity for 'product' dedicated to doing the composting? Anyone see all the ways this process will not be adhered to?

Consider that if you dig a hole and throw all your organic waste in it until it is overflowing, then cover it with soil and forget about it, within 6 months there will be no trace of any of it. All that will remain is a thick black organic peaty stuff, lots of fat contented earthworms, and bits of plastic that you swore you never put in yourself. And it will be exactly the thing that your next crop of home-grown veges will thrive in. You figure out the rest - it ain't rocket-science.

Next time you get the urge to see what sort of composting product is out there and you start getting itchy to make rotating barrels after watching YouTube videos, don't. Just get out the shovel, and dig a hole where you'll plant next year's tomatoes.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby Jakezilla » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:54 pm

The compost gig sounds much like a high maintenence pet that is never even alive. Any thoughts on wood stove ashes? Good or bad for certian plants? Glad you found your way to the new forum mongolking, good to see you back.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby mongolking » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:02 pm

Jakezilla wrote:The compost gig sounds much like a high maintenence pet that is never even alive. Any thoughts on wood stove ashes? Good or bad for certian plants? Glad you found your way to the new forum mongolking, good to see you back.


Can't call myself an expert on wood ash, but the little I do know is that it tends to be high in potassium - one of the 3 main elements plants need (the others are nitrogen and phosphorus). Personally, I'd just bury it along with all the other degradable waste and let the worms/micro-organisms do their damnedest. If you bury this stuff a good distance down (say between 1 and two feet) - the worms will do a great job of dispersing it, and any plants you plant over it will find it with their roots and come back for more if they like it.

Burying ones waste at a good depth also has the advantage of sprouting weed and other undesirable seed at a depth they will never be able to survive.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby EddieS » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:22 pm

My post hole borer attachment gets used for fence posts and digging holes for kitchen waste degradable material. Including meat etc... Put them in various places in the garden bed. Bones go through the wood chipper first. I have a comfrey patch specifically for making into compost. Veg loves comfrey compost.
I usually add dolomite to the hole at some point. I find most soils are magnesium deficient. I hope that this will gradually improve them.
The buried compost method is great. As Mongol said, it has to be buried deep enough though.

I also have an above ground compost pile in each garden bed. It's made from woodchippings, grass cuttings and other mass plant material. Place it at the highest point. I only water the compost. Not the plants. It seems to be a more efficient use of water. Water hungry stuff get planted close. Stuff that likes less water, further away. Once the harvest is done, just spread the pile out over the garden bed, plant, and go again. This way the soil is constantly improving.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby mongolking » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:31 pm

EddieS wrote:
I also have an above ground compost pile in each garden bed. It's made from woodchippings, grass cuttings and other mass plant material. Place it at the highest point. I only water the compost. Not the plants. It seems to be a more efficient use of water. Water hungry stuff get planted close. Stuff that likes less water, further away. Once the harvest is done, just spread the pile out over the garden bed, plant, and go again. This way the soil is constantly improving.


Good points.

I guess I do something similar in that I lay all pulled weeds and the remains of other crops (like tomato vines and corn stalk) over the soil between younger plants. I do this to cover any bare soil, which I try to avoid at all costs - I see it as a ground water leak. The growing pile of drying vegetable mass also acts as a thermal blanket, raising the ground temperature - and most plants really like this. It also tends to discourage weed-growth, and eventually decomposes and becomes compost for next year's growth.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby Jakezilla » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:32 pm

Another idea on my mind today was swamps. I have a small swamp on my land.(just big enough for ducks, but not to support fish) What about hauling the sediment(muck) from the bottom into my garden before I till the soil. I would guess that is pure organic matter going to work before I even bought the property.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby mongolking » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:42 pm

Jakezilla wrote:Another idea on my mind today was swamps. I have a small swamp on my land.(just big enough for ducks, but not to support fish) What about hauling the sediment(muck) from the bottom into my garden before I till the soil. I would guess that is pure organic matter going to work before I even bought the property.


I suspect you're right. I wouldn't even work the swamp matter into the soil - just lay it on the surface of your garden beds and let the local creepy-crawlers do what comes natural.

I read a story in the paper many years ago where someone figured out how to measure the activity of earth-worms alone. The results were staggering - and all their work was done at night. Apparently worms surpass ploughs in their ability to circulate material through soil. They come up in the dark, eat everything they can, go diving into the ground again, and then poop out super rich fertiliser everywhere they go. The do this hundreds of times every night.

The lesson was simple. Just leave them food on the ground, and they will do all the rest. Drying swamp muck would probably look like heaven to them.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby EddieS » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:44 pm

Yeah, you can't waste it. If it came from that soil, at least as much has to be put back. So all the non harvested material must be recycled. The sun, the worms, micro organisms, weeds, manure all make up the missing part that got eaten. Lol.

I'm running a little experiment. I figure weeds are nature's deficiency correction. I have a garden bed that seemed to particularly favourable to one weed. It was also the least productive bed.
So I'm leaving it fallow and letting that weed go nuts in it. I'm even spreading the seed. For the first few months it went rampant. Last couple it has started to die back and lose virility quite a lot. In 3 months time I will dig it all into itself and plant it. Theory being the weed has had time to correct the problem naturally, and once the cycle is done it will be very productive once again.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby EddieS » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:48 pm

Jake, don't overdo the muck. It's very potent stuff. It's usually very high in anaerobic bacteria. A little goes a long way.

One thing you could do with the swamp is get a solar water pump and create a small aquaculture set up off the water. Depending on how much waste is being processed by the water ammonia cycle, and the amount of water, you could grow some lettuce or something.
Aquaculture can be very very productive.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby Jakezilla » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:59 pm

Sound reasoning EddieS, will be interesting to see the end result. I have noticed a part of my property where the grass was dying off. In spring it's more burdock than grass. Perhaps this is the "natures correction" you speak of. I think I'll just let it thrive in this area and see what happenes.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby mongolking » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:00 pm

EddieS wrote:Yeah, you can't waste it. If it came from that soil, at least as much has to be put back. So all the non harvested material must be recycled. The sun, the worms, micro organisms, weeds, manure all make up the missing part that got eaten. Lol.

I'm running a little experiment. I figure weeds are nature's deficiency correction. I have a garden bed that seemed to particularly favourable to one weed. It was also the least productive bed.
So I'm leaving it fallow and letting that weed go nuts in it. I'm even spreading the seed. For the first few months it went rampant. Last couple it has started to die back and lose virility quite a lot. In 3 months time I will dig it all into itself and plant it. Theory being the weed has had time to correct the problem naturally, and once the cycle is done it will be very productive once again.


This conversation is really hitting my sweet spots.

The land I live on now was once all hard, compacted clay. I literally dug the growing beds out, filled the holes in with anything that would rot, and planted seedlings on top. It worked pretty well.

What I soon learned though was that even clay would grow stuff if some rogue seed fell there. Sometimes the clay would grow magnificent parsnips and celery that had self-sown, while the stuff I planted wouldn't go anywhere. Obviously, there was plenty of nutrient in clay - and when one thinks about it, clay forms at the bottom of bodies of water. It probably has a similar nutrition profile to Jakezilla's swamp muck. It just isn't porous like top-soil, meaning air is in short-supply.

The big lesson though was watching the weeds. Any ground that the weeds prospered in, I was soon able to grow more desirable stuff in. I began to see weeds not as pests, but as hardy 'colonisers'. A weed is far preferable to dry, bare soil. A weed provides a home for a critter. The critter lives and shits there. Other plants and critters move in. Pretty soon, what was once desert becomes growing ground.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby Jakezilla » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:10 pm

A little goes a long way eh. I knew there was a reason that even with a short growing season(zone 4) our cattails that grow out of this muck reach 6 feet tall by september. You should see the roots of the lily pads up here, as big around as your wrist. That's what started me on this idea.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby fester » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:46 pm

I used to make a cubic yard or so of compost using the Leaves/grass/some garbage/some dirt formula, and it worked reasonable well; it did a lot to improve the soil.

I'll never forget one May where I spread a lot of finished compost (dark and sweet smelling) on my vegetable beds, and watered it in.

Within an hour or so, a number of large black and yellow swallowtail butterflied appeared, and we watched them suck on the newly wet compost....haven't seen that since.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby Rouleur » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:52 am

I like your style mongolking. Yes, composting is stupid.

I don't even bother with it. I burn all my trash. When I want some extra soil for the garden, I get the tractor and dig a bucket load out of the creekbed then dump it on the garden.

Fighting insects is pointless. Fighting weeds is pointless. Fighting animals is pointless. Plant 4X what you need. Let the critters have 3/4 of it and take the best 1/4 for yourself.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby mongolking » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:03 am

Rouleur wrote:I like your style mongolking. Yes, composting is stupid.

I don't even bother with it. I burn all my trash. When I want some extra soil for the garden, I get the tractor and dig a bucket load out of the creekbed then dump it on the garden.

Fighting insects is pointless. Fighting weeds is pointless. Fighting animals is pointless. Plant 4X what you need. Let the critters have 3/4 of it and take the best 1/4 for yourself.


I always plant way more than I need too.

I figure if I don't get to eat it all myself, I am at least training the ground to grow what I want. The plant species I prefer are dominating, they get to spread their seed, and all the other organisms that like living with them are being encouraged.

And it sure beats growing less than I can eat.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby .py » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:38 pm

Mongolking , you seem to know a lot about this topic so I'll ask you.

What's your opinion on worm farms?
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby mongolking » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:44 pm

.py wrote:Mongolking , you seem to know a lot about this topic so I'll ask you.

What's your opinion on worm farms?


If they make you want to raise worms, and get you wanting to feed them and fatten them up, then where's the harm?

Personally though, I would rather turn my entire lot into a massive worm farm. One cannot have enough of them.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby .py » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:51 pm

5 years ago , I started dumping my biodegradable garbage into a bin and getting some compost after several months. I'm thinking of dumping my compost project and using worms instead. I grow a vegetable garden , 5x2 meters and I'm thinking of expand it to 20 m2 or maybe 25m2. That's why I need a more efficient way of getting compost.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby Entreri » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:13 pm

I don't compost either. Nor will I when I have a place and can garden again.

I also don't recycle, I use whatever fucking bottles/containers I want, and the only reason I have a fuel efficient vehicle and would buy another one is because gas is so FUCKING expensive and I do a LOT of driving.

Fuck all that 'green' bullshit. I don't give a fuck what happens to the planet after I die. The entire thing can burn, it won't make a lick of difference to me, cuz I'll be dead.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby mongolking » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:15 pm

.py wrote:5 years ago , I started dumping my biodegradable garbage into a bin and getting some compost after several months. I'm thinking of dumping my compost project and using worms instead. I grow a vegetable garden , 5x2 meters and I'm thinking of expand it to 20 m2 or maybe 25m2. That's why I need a more efficient way of getting compost.



It's my view that we don't really need compost. What we need is more top-soil that is rich in carboniferous material, rich in worms and beneficial organisms, and conducive to growing the kind of crops we want.

It is certainly true that compost will help lead us in the right direction - especially if it is bagged and paid for, or made by commercial devices (pardon my sarcasm) - but these commercial offerings don't have a monopoly on soil enrichment. If you live near the sea, gather up all the sea-weed you can get your hands on, and lay it over your garden beds. The worms, the microbes in the soil, and time will do everything necessary. The same goes with kitchen waste, like banana skins, vegetable peelings, coffee grounds, tea leaves etc - don't bother composting them, just lay them on the ground besides your seedlings. Nature will compost them for you on the spot.

Believe it or not, human waste is just as good. You will read all sorts of horror stories about how much care must be taken when using human waste as a garden fertiliser, but the fact is, there has never been any reported case of food poisoning in the US caused by people eating crops fertilised by sewerage. The only repoerted risk appears to come from direct contact - ie open sores with human turd is just asking for trouble. The same turd feeding a tomato? not so much.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby .py » Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:05 am

mongolking wrote:It's my view that we don't really need compost. What we need is more top-soil that is rich in carboniferous material, rich in worms and beneficial organisms, and conducive to growing the kind of crops we want.

It is certainly true that compost will help lead us in the right direction - especially if it is bagged and paid for, or made by commercial devices (pardon my sarcasm) - but these commercial offerings don't have a monopoly on soil enrichment. If you live near the sea, gather up all the sea-weed you can get your hands on, and lay it over your garden beds. The worms, the microbes in the soil, and time will do everything necessary. The same goes with kitchen waste, like banana skins, vegetable peelings, coffee grounds, tea leaves etc - don't bother composting them, just lay them on the ground besides your seedlings. Nature will compost them for you on the spot.

Believe it or not, human waste is just as good. You will read all sorts of horror stories about how much care must be taken when using human waste as a garden fertiliser, but the fact is, there has never been any reported case of food poisoning in the US caused by people eating crops fertilised by sewerage. The only repoerted risk appears to come from direct contact - ie open sores with human turd is just asking for trouble. The same turd feeding a tomato? not so much.

I don't want to get compost exclusively for my vegetable garden, even though it helps getting better (and faster) tomatoes, pumpkins and basil.

What I see is this: I have some biodegrable garbage has no use for me, I can
A) throw it away in the garbage bin, forget about it and get nothing
B) compost it, use it for my vegetable garden and maybe sell some of it
C) compost it in a worm farm, get compost and worms for my vegetable garden and sell both in the market.

Now, I understand I may get little money out of it but earning some money beats earning no money every day. I believe I read here in other thread that you're a kiwi so a quick google search results like http://www.compostshop.co.nz/ and http://www.earthlydelight.co.nz/products.htm#worms. I plan to emigrate there after I finish my bachelor so I may use this knowledge in the next 2 or 3 years, in the meantime I'm going to learn how to raise a proper worm farm. Growing vegetables is a hobby for me.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby WorldWeary » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:40 am

Anyone have experience with human waste composting? I was just going to build an enclosure for one of those 5gallon buckets with a snap-on toilet seat, line it with a thick paper lawn bag, drop in a couple inches of peat moss in the bottom and add a scoop or 2 every time I go.

I think I'm going to need a urine diverter that will be mixed 1:10 with my waste water so I can use the water on plants and trees. 3 buckets to rotate for the solid waste...it should take about 3 months to compost each bucket, and then I can empty it into the designated garden area. That is the initial plan, but it's all theory. Any suggestions?
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby Billy » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:20 am

Jakezilla wrote:Another idea on my mind today was swamps. I have a small swamp on my land.(just big enough for ducks, but not to support fish) What about hauling the sediment(muck) from the bottom into my garden before I till the soil. I would guess that is pure organic matter going to work before I even bought the property.



You have to be careful with the muck from ponds and swamps. We were paid to clean out a pond that had tuned into a swamp in the city. Removed the mud and had to dispose of it , so my brother hauled it to his house and spead it over acre of native gasses. Killed everything and took a complete year growing season before even weeds would grow. The muck was so high in fertilizer runoff that it would not grow a weed. The next year it grew great.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby mongolking » Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:05 pm

WorldWeary wrote:Anyone have experience with human waste composting? I was just going to build an enclosure for one of those 5gallon buckets with a snap-on toilet seat, line it with a thick paper lawn bag, drop in a couple inches of peat moss in the bottom and add a scoop or 2 every time I go.

I think I'm going to need a urine diverter that will be mixed 1:10 with my waste water so I can use the water on plants and trees. 3 buckets to rotate for the solid waste...it should take about 3 months to compost each bucket, and then I can empty it into the designated garden area. That is the initial plan, but it's all theory. Any suggestions?


My house is out in the sticks, so I have a composter for toilet waste. Most rural properties use septic tanks, but below a certain size house, dry composters are allowed. The composter is basically a large plastic drum that the toilet flushes into. There's a spiral-shaped chute between toilet and drum, so that liquids in the flush follow a different path than solids. The solids drop into the composting drum, and the liquids go into my waste-water settling tanks (from which they trickle through a field of irrigation pipes pegged out over a gentle slope that is covered in native bush).

The dry composting is basically the natural way dung is broken down. Microbes mainly, with a lot of help from worms. One thing I've noticed is that dung ceases to be so objectionable very quickly, if separated from water, and especially if there's no urine in the mix.

The easiest way to keep urine separate is to keep a plastic watering-can in your bathroom, and use it for liquid waste, and empty it out over the garden at least once a day. Best to put some water in it first to dilute it, and to sprinkle it over soil and compost only, rather than directly over crops.
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Re: Why Composting is Stupid

Postby WorldWeary » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:45 pm

Thanks mongolking! That is very helpful. The spiral chute thing sounds ingenious. I will look into it once I get more established. Initially, I will jerry-rig a funnel with a tube that attaches to the inside of the bucket.
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