disciplinary action / write ups

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disciplinary action / write ups

Postby going this way » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:21 pm

I bet I wouldn't have many write ups as I do if it weren't for women going up, was written up today for negative attitude, "micro managing" -& bickering. I forgot even how many times I've been written up, but it almost never happens when it's all guys.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby fester » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:03 pm

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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby Morgu » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:08 pm

Find a lawyer who specializes in business law, see if you can have a Cease and Desist order sent to the business. Also see about having the business surrender a list of names of the people who have been complaining.

No mercy, no prisoners. If this is happening repeatedly, then you need to fight back. Make it so expensive and annoying for the company to write you up that the company will just tell the whining twats to screw off.

If you don't fight this, then the company has an excuse to fire you, and can make it look like you were harassing staff.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby ranome » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:57 pm

going this way wrote:I bet I wouldn't have many write ups as I do if it weren't for women going up, was written up today for negative attitude, "micro managing" -& bickering. I forgot even how many times I've been written up, but it almost never happens when it's all guys.


First, you should know how many times you were written up. If you don't, then request a copy of your personnel file. If your employer is building a file against you, you should at least know what it contains.

Second, I suspect that if you live in the state your IP address indicates, it is an at-will employment state, which means that your employer can discharge you for any reason or for no reason. That doesn't mean that your employer can discharge you without consequence.

I practice law in an at-will state, and while an employer can fire an employee for no reason in my state (which is not your state), that employer will still be on the hook for unemployment benefits unless the employee was discharged "for misconduct connected to the work." This gives employers a financial incentive to establish grounds for the termination that they can use to defend an unemployment benefits claim in a contested hearing.

My clients were so bad at losing those hearings that they started running all employee write-ups by me first before issuing them.

My questions to you are:

---What constitutes "bickering?" Does your employer have an employee handbook that prohibits "bickering," however it is defined?

--What constitutes "negative attitude?" However defined, is there an employee policy that prohibits "negative attitude" that has been provably communicated to you?

--What constitutes "micro-managing?"

You get the point. These are nebulous labels that amount to little more than epithets.

I have had my best success in defending unemployment claims when the employee has provably violated an employee directive. It need not be serious. It could be as trivial as how you part your hair. But in the absence of a clear violation of a clear directive, "misconduct in connection with the work" can be hard to prove.

Know what is in your personnel file. Ask questions when you are written up, with specifics on what you have done to violate company policy, and where that policy is memorialized. The answers to these questions just might identify the complainant. Make them do more than just throw labels at you.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby going this way » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:21 am

ranome wrote:
going this way wrote:I bet I wouldn't have many write ups as I do if it weren't for women going up, was written up today for negative attitude, "micro managing" -& bickering. I forgot even how many times I've been written up, but it almost never happens when it's all guys.


First, you should know how many times you were written up. If you don't, then request a copy of your personnel file. If your employer is building a file against you, you should at least know what it contains.

Second, I suspect that if you live in the state your IP address indicates, it is an at-will employment state, which means that your employer can discharge you for any reason or for no reason. That doesn't mean that your employer can discharge you without consequence.

I practice law in an at-will state, and while an employer can fire an employee for no reason in my state (which is not your state), that employer will still be on the hook for unemployment benefits unless the employee was discharged "for misconduct connected to the work." This gives employers a financial incentive to establish grounds for the termination that they can use to defend an unemployment benefits claim in a contested hearing.

My clients were so bad at losing those hearings that they started running all employee write-ups by me first before issuing them.

My questions to you are:

---What constitutes "bickering?" Does your employer have an employee handbook that prohibits "bickering," however it is defined?

--What constitutes "negative attitude?" However defined, is there an employee policy that prohibits "negative attitude" that has been provably communicated to you?

--What constitutes "micro-managing?"

You get the point. These are nebulous labels that amount to little more than epithets.

I have had my best success in defending unemployment claims when the employee has provably violated an employee directive. It need not be serious. It could be as trivial as how you part your hair. But in the absence of a clear violation of a clear directive, "misconduct in connection with the work" can be hard to prove.

Know what is in your personnel file. Ask questions when you are written up, with specifics on what you have done to violate company policy, and where that policy is memorialized. The answers to these questions just might identify the complainant. Make them do more than just throw labels at you.


I did ask questions during that time, I probably should ask to see my file just to be sure- I know how many times it happened to me. I do know that my state law also has something about employers lying in references & former employees can request an exact copy of what was given out. Trouble is, the upper people don't get paid much more for doing more work, everybody knows it so crap happens. it's not worth staying ever since the company was sold. I'm still hoping I can find something somewhere, if I were let go I probably could find something but not really what I'd like.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby Morgu » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:43 am

It's a buyer's market, and the companies are taking full advantage of that.

Refuse to work unpaid over time? Fired.

Won't go and pick up the company mail, because the company refuses to reimburse you for mileage? Fired.

Finish your work on time, making others look bad? Fired.

Company can't find something to hold over your head? The company will forge something. With their lawyer's support, you will be fired.

Fight for your unemployment? The company will use their lawyers to make it look like you violated the company policy on harassment. A policy which provides no definition of the term "harassment".

Work as an IT guy? The company will demand you be on call 24/7, without compensation for the time.

Company requires you to maintain your license/certifications/etc, but refuses to pay for it, or even reimburse you for it. If you demand or even request payment/reimbursement? Fired, with threats from the company of lawsuits, criminal action, etc.

All corporate environments are hostile these days.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby TheWanderer » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:45 am

What do they do if you refuse to sign a write up? Anyone ever declined to sign before?
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby Entreri » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:54 am

Morgu wrote:It's a buyer's market, and the companies are taking full advantage of that.

Refuse to work unpaid over time? Fired.

Won't go and pick up the company mail, because the company refuses to reimburse you for mileage? Fired.

Finish your work on time, making others look bad? Fired.

Company can't find something to hold over your head? The company will forge something. With their lawyer's support, you will be fired.

Fight for your unemployment? The company will use their lawyers to make it look like you violated the company policy on harassment. A policy which provides no definition of the term "harassment".

Work as an IT guy? The company will demand you be on call 24/7, without compensation for the time.

Company requires you to maintain your license/certifications/etc, but refuses to pay for it, or even reimburse you for it. If you demand or even request payment/reimbursement? Fired, with threats from the company of lawsuits, criminal action, etc.

All corporate environments are hostile these days.


QFT.

Don't forget if you're not willing to do all that shit, AND take a 50% pay cut, they'll just replace you with some H-1B Indian, or hire a couple illegal Messkins to do the job.

Corporate America fucking sucks, and it's only getting worse.

And we (as a whole) have only ourselves to blame.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby going this way » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:22 am

TheWanderer wrote:What do they do if you refuse to sign a write up? Anyone ever declined to sign before?


Depends on the job & circumstances, before I transferred, years ago I refused to sign one (it didn't make sense at all) & cleared it up with the lead man. Make sure you're talking about what the exact problems are & what actually happened. Trouble can & will find anyone.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby DruidV » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:10 am

This is why learning a trade and a variety of practical skill sets is so important for young men, today.

A young man simply has no chance in the office, the class room, or on the sales floor, anymore.

Conversely, women have no chance in STEM, or skilled trades.

After looking at that thread about the young split tail doing her some "automotive maintenance", I am more convinced of this than ever.

It's no surprise that women, in spite of their now having most of the money and all of the "high end" jobs, are still collectively and individually just as dumb as boxes of rocks.

Therefore, it only follows that the young men of today will somehow be "catering" to them later on in life.

May as well be sure to get paid correctly for it.

Until Ent's comet arrives, cunts will always need men. For everything.

Count on it and cash in on it.

Pro tip: Truck driving school is fucking dirt cheap, virtually devoid of split tails, and transport companies are plentiful and are always looking for "green" drivers. The pay off has the potential to be pretty damn good, over the long haul.
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Last edited by DruidV on Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:24 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby going this way » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:13 am

Morgu wrote:It's a buyer's market, and the companies are taking full advantage of that.

Refuse to work unpaid over time? Fired.

Won't go and pick up the company mail, because the company refuses to reimburse you for mileage? Fired.

Finish your work on time, making others look bad? Fired.

Company can't find something to hold over your head? The company will forge something. With their lawyer's support, you will be fired.

Fight for your unemployment? The company will use their lawyers to make it look like you violated the company policy on harassment. A policy which provides no definition of the term "harassment".

Work as an IT guy? The company will demand you be on call 24/7, without compensation for the time.

Company requires you to maintain your license/certifications/etc, but refuses to pay for it, or even reimburse you for it. If you demand or even request payment/reimbursement? Fired, with threats from the company of lawsuits, criminal action, etc.

All corporate environments are hostile these days.


You make me glad I don't work somewhere as bad as Walmart, :) Then I'd have those concerns, seen that documentary movie on them-they may have come a ways since, yet have so long to go.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby Demosthenes » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:47 am

TheWanderer wrote:What do they do if you refuse to sign a write up? Anyone ever declined to sign before?


I declined several times.

The first time was when I was suspended and technically but not officially fired when a woman accused me of harassment only to call up a couple of weeks later asking where I was and admitting her lies and false accusations.

They didn't do anything really as far as telling me to leave and figured they would handle any necessary paperwork later. Only men in this scenario. My immediate supervisor, a secondary parallel supervisor to him, my father because reasons, my father's boss, and his boss too.

They were all deeply 'disappointed' in me of course, and then two weeks alter, they were embarrassed as fuck. White Knight simps all, and especially my father for putting me through more than the regular hell at home because 'he looked bad' because of me.

The second time, I was being written up (again) for bullshit, and I refused to sign. I only included a response of the first encounter, the conversation which had been had then, the bullshit of why the second writeup was unfounded as well, and left it at that.

After that, it became a regular 5 or 6 month interval thing with me, and as I found out later, many others to keep them from transferring (clean record on write ups or no transfers)

That was form the same cunt leaning in supervising a department in a biological reference laboratory who was 'successful career woman, and 'intimidated' by a 19 or 20 year old who learned all the shit in the department within 6 months of being there and even streamlined their inventory process and worked with the programmer to update ordering so there wouldn't be an issue for supplied hindering productivity.

Not signing her 'write up' was another 'challenge' to her authority. Writing a response which had to go into file caused her to (apparently) have to be evaluated as well.

Wonderfully, when I left, they had to hire two temps to do my job, and within a week or so, a third. Temp agencies in the areas charged double or even triple what the hourly wage of the actual temp was, so the department budget became an issue once again after I left.

IN addition, I did not know but I started a trend when I 'backtalked' the bitch coming down on me in front of every one by letting her know "no I will not sign your evaluation, and yes, I will be adding my response 'AGAIN'.

I learned much later that was the beginning of more people doing it and when those start piling up, the higher ups notice. Plus she was already on the radar for her shit because one of the departmental employees sued the company for the write up issue and won. Her lawyer even got the concession that they allow her to transfer, keep her job, while the decision was ongoing - and supposedly the company thought they could push that to 'force' her to drop her lawsuit, but they found out that not only could they not force her to do so (make her think she had to drop it), that if they fired her, they'd be subject to another lawsuit because of the way they had MIS-managed the situation.

I faced a similar situation when a company I worked for started merger talks. The guy I had replaced 3 years earlier had switched jobs and technically divisions, which with the way the rules were written, he was in a newer' position than I was. My direct supervisor saw what our manager was doing to save this other guy by trying to make me look bad, and she bowed out. The next supervisor took a hard look at things and realized what was going on having reviewed things and was understanding of what was going on.

Now most of my female supervisors I have been respectful to, but most of them have been mediocre too. This girl went to bat, challenged our manager, and took it to our department head and our division head. I got a public acknowledgement and apology from the ass wipe for his bullshit and my official manager became 'not him'. Technically, my manager was directly to the dept, head which was weird, but the manager over me and my supervisor had friends. The department head (a woman over our manager) had my back.

Things still went to shit because the merger caused the backstabbing environment to get crazy very fast.

But yeah, don't sign or acknowledge anything you choose. Signature can mean acknowledgement of written criticism to be true whether they say so or not. It's about the spin, and like cops, they don't have to tell you the truth if they do not wish to.

Sometimes, policy which is not available defines the forms signed and they'll point to a signature and say the employee signed acknowledging 'all policies' and everything was 'fully explained'.

You're just an employee to these people. Nothing more. No matter the corporate culture bullshit propaganda they want people indoctrinated into when they onboard you, they'll just as easily offboard you when they wish.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby TDG » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:58 am

I'd be looking for another job if I got written up for anything.

I'd take that shit personally and see it as a clear sign of disrespect by my employer.

But that's me.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby Morgu » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:46 pm

TheWanderer wrote:What do they do if you refuse to sign a write up? Anyone ever declined to sign before?

Never sign anything without your lawyer giving you the go ahead first. Never.

Your legal options when presented with a write up are:
1. Sign it. This acknowledges that everything in the write up is true.
2. Refuse to sign the write up. Do nothing else.
3. Refuse to sign the write up, and send in a response to it.

There exists no benefit to you signing the write up. Your signature can only be used against you. Find a business lawyer, and discuss your legal options with them. Have the lawyer help you draft your response.


If your employer tries this, find another job. Doing the whole legal write up song and dance act is the kind of disrespect that meant a duel, in times past.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby Hank Moody » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:20 pm

One pattern that I have been researching is, since twats started rising to corporate high paying jobs those same corporations are swimming in debt. I am not sure if it's a combination of poor decisions, and personnel but I am sure twats fingerprints are all over it.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby toadman » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:35 pm

Company has a PDF 'Employee Handbook" posted on an "Associate Portal" declared as a "living document", updated at will subject to revision with or without advanced notification. I watch those revision header-footer changes. Neglect to review such revisions, alluded to vaguely in web meetings or not is no excuse for ignorance, failure to follow direction, insubordination, and grounds for penalties up to and including...

Fucked up, in the "didn't you get that memo?" sort of way.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby Slade » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:41 pm

TDG wrote:I'd be looking for another job if I got written up for anything.

I'd take that shit personally and see it as a clear sign of disrespect by my employer.

But that's me.


Always remember, if they are writing you up, they've already decided to fire you. They just need a paper trail in case you try to sue for unlawful termination. If you are fired, as opposed to laid off, their unemployment fund contributions won't go up. Some companies won't bother with firing you, and just lay you off when things get slow.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby going this way » Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:13 pm

Hank Moody wrote:One pattern that I have been researching is, since twats started rising to corporate high paying jobs those same corporations are swimming in debt. I am not sure if it's a combination of poor decisions, and personnel but I am sure twats fingerprints are all over it.


I noticed that jobs-some jobs are getting cameras-more cameras, I have to wonder how useful that is & if the person sitting there watching is getting minimum.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby Morgu » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:24 pm

going this way wrote:
Hank Moody wrote:One pattern that I have been researching is, since twats started rising to corporate high paying jobs those same corporations are swimming in debt. I am not sure if it's a combination of poor decisions, and personnel but I am sure twats fingerprints are all over it.


I noticed that jobs-some jobs are getting cameras-more cameras, I have to wonder how useful that is & if the person sitting there watching is getting minimum.

Cameras owned by the employer are only of minimal help to the terminated employee. The cameras and their footage are the property of the employer. How likely is that footage to place its owner in a negative light?

Yes, the employer will delete any footage that is requested by the opposition's lawyer, but then the opposition's lawyer has to prove the footage was purposely deleted, and not destroyed due to a "technical difficulty" (company hiring a temp IT guy to delete the footage and take care of any other IT problems).

Even if one somehow finds an employer who is honest (not going to happen) the lighting in the footage might be too dark, the people might be too far away, the camera might be an obsolete model, etc. Any one of these might cause the footage to be removed from the case.

Used to be everyone was installing those fireman's pikes (the red axes in glass boxes), now everyone is removing the fireman pikes, and installing cameras.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby The Shadow » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:27 am

DruidV wrote:This is why learning a trade and a variety of practical skill sets is so important for young men, today.

A young man simply has no chance in the office, the class room, or on the sales floor, anymore.

Conversely, women have no chance in STEM, or skilled trades.

After looking at that thread about the young split tail doing her some "automotive maintenance", I am more convinced of this than ever.

It's no surprise that women, in spite of their now having most of the money and all of the "high end" jobs, are still collectively and individually just as dumb as boxes of rocks.

Therefore, it only follows that the young men of today will somehow be "catering" to them later on in life.

May as well be sure to get paid correctly for it.

Until Ent's comet arrives, cunts will always need men. For everything.

Count on it and cash in on it.

Pro tip: Truck driving school is fucking dirt cheap, virtually devoid of split tails, and transport companies are plentiful and are always looking for "green" drivers. The pay off has the potential to be pretty damn good, over the long haul.


Not really, DruidV:

The turnover, or "churn" rate, in trucking is extremely high. Most newbies dont even last two years, if that. You are away from home for weeks at a time and the divorce rate is 70 percent in the trucking biz. You'll be lucky to clear 30K in your first year or two.

Trust me, I know all about the trucking business, having been in it since 1975. The pay is lousy these days, and if you enjoy drug use, you may as well forget about it, as you will be peeing in a cup at least two or three times per year.

In a few years, its expected that 4.4 million drivers will be out of work due to autonomous driving trucks. Already, lots of trailers are hauled by inter-modal railway transport, so there is no use in thinking about becoming a real "truck driver".

Take it from me: professional truck driving is HARD WORK. Its not just sitting behind the steering wheel. You will be freezing your arse off throwing on chains in blizzard conditions, and unloading freight from a HOT trailer, all too often.

My advice? Take up a trade like an electrician, a plumber, a carpenter, a mechanic or something along those lines. I would have done so, if I had the chance to do it all over again. You'll be money ahead, lots of those jobs are union, and you won't feel like you were run over by a truck, when you get older, like me. :lol:

Any questions about trucking? I will gladly answer them here, or you can visit https://www.thetruckersreport.com/. BTW, don't believe half of what you hear or read; lying, in the trucking industry, is par for the course, gents.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby thenamelessone » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:04 am

Morgu wrote:
TheWanderer wrote:What do they do if you refuse to sign a write up? Anyone ever declined to sign before?

Never sign anything without your lawyer giving you the go ahead first. Never.

Your legal options when presented with a write up are:
1. Sign it. This acknowledges that everything in the write up is true.
2. Refuse to sign the write up. Do nothing else.
3. Refuse to sign the write up, and send in a response to it.

There exists no benefit to you signing the write up. Your signature can only be used against you. Find a business lawyer, and discuss your legal options with them. Have the lawyer help you draft your response.


If your employer tries this, find another job. Doing the whole legal write up song and dance act is the kind of disrespect that meant a duel, in times past.


Just chipping in as someone who was a manager, and has had the 'privilege' of working with other managers

In Australia, simply signing a written warning doesn't necessarily mean the employee agrees with the claims in the warning. The employee signs to acknowledge that they *received* the warning, much as you sign to acknowledge you've received a driving ticket (although you can still contest the ticket in court). If you're a bit edgy about it, you can simply sign and endorse the document with 'I am signing to acknowledge receipt of this warning, but do not agree with the claims in it. A written rebuttal is to follow.' If you don't sign, the manager just gets a witness in to state that the employee was informed of the warning and refused to sign.

Refusing to sign the document outright would definitely put you in an adversarial position with your boss/manager. Even though it's no skin off their nose to get a witness in to endorse the warning, you're pretty much broadcasting that you're not taking the warning to heart and think it's a load of shit. Written warnings are (sometimes) given in a genuine attempt to correct poor behaviour/performance in an individual, so poo-pooing it just confirms to the boss that you are not a fit on the company.

Of course, I said 'sometimes' they are a genuine. If you're getting them for stupid bullshit, the company is most likely creating a paper trail to cover their ass so that they can boot your ass out the door. Personally, I've never seen anyone last longer than a year after receiving a dubious warning, they were either terminated or resigned first.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby Morgu » Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:44 pm

thenamelessone wrote:In Australia, simply signing a written warning doesn't necessarily mean the employee agrees with the claims in the warning. The employee signs to acknowledge that they *received* the warning, much as you sign to acknowledge you've received a driving ticket (although you can still contest the ticket in court).

This is the same, legally, here in america.

The company's lying, low-down, double dealing, larcenous perverted worm in a suit (lawyer) will still use the signed write up against you. He will use your signature on the document to mean you agreed with the information contained within the document.

thenamelessone wrote: If you're a bit edgy about it, you can simply sign and endorse the document with 'I am signing to acknowledge receipt of this warning, but do not agree with the claims in it. A written rebuttal is to follow.' If you don't sign, the manager just gets a witness in to state that the employee was informed of the warning and refused to sign.

It is the same here in the usa. Placing the endorsement cannot help you, the company will just place an altered version into your personnel file. The altered version will have your endorsement removed, but the signature will remain.

Companies are out to protect their bottom line. If that means lying on the stand, altering documents, placing documents into your personnel file without showing them to the employee before hand, etc, the company will do it.

thenamelessone wrote:Refusing to sign the document outright would definitely put you in an adversarial position with your boss/manager.

The adversarial position was created when the manager did the write up. Not when the employee refuses to sign the write up.

thenamelessone wrote:Even though it's no skin off their nose to get a witness in to endorse the warning, you're pretty much broadcasting that you're not taking the warning to heart and think it's a load of shit.

Write ups are always bullshit. Write ups are one adult assuming some pretend position of authority over another, to influence the behavior, personality, and character of another. Instead of simply telling the person being written up that something was not working.

The real reason managers are uncomfortable when an employee refuses to sign is because the manager is afraid they might have to contend with an investigation into themselves. No other reason.

thenamelessone wrote:Written warnings are (sometimes) given in a genuine attempt to correct poor behaviour/performance in an individual,

A person's behavior is determined by their character, which was formed from past experience. If a person's own family cannot change an individual's character, what makes managers/companies/etc think a piece of paper with some moron's signature on it will?

thenamelessone wrote:so poo-pooing it just confirms to the boss that you are not a fit on the company.

Doing a write up is always an insult to the individual being written up. Always. If the company was interested in fixing the problem, they would not be doing a write up. Write ups are used to cover the company's ass, nothing else.

A manager/supervisor/etc who does a write up is creating a hostile situation, and placing the employee into a position from which the employee's only choice is to either hire an expensive suit wearing fast talker (lawyer) or lose employment and all which that means. Companies know this, and use it to their advantage.

Anything a company can do to protect their bottom line, they will do.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby thenamelessone » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:58 am

Morgu wrote:
thenamelessone wrote:In Australia, simply signing a written warning doesn't necessarily mean the employee agrees with the claims in the warning. The employee signs to acknowledge that they *received* the warning, much as you sign to acknowledge you've received a driving ticket (although you can still contest the ticket in court).

This is the same, legally, here in america.

The company's lying, low-down, double dealing, larcenous perverted worm in a suit (lawyer) will still use the signed write up against you. He will use your signature on the document to mean you agreed with the information contained within the document.


While I can't blame you for being cynical about the current employee-employer relationship in the U.S, I find it hard to believe that the above has ever been successfully argued in a court of law. You sign a warning to acknowledge that you received a warning, nothing more. If you have a test case that proves otherwise, I'm happy to see it.


Morgu wrote:The adversarial position was created when the manager did the write up. Not when the employee refuses to sign the write up. Write ups are always bullshit. Write ups are one adult assuming some pretend position of authority over another, to influence the behavior, personality, and character of another. Instead of simply telling the person being written up that something was not working.


I don't consider it adversarial to provide a written warning *if it is merited*. Telling an employee that something is wrong is all well and good as a first step, but merely having a word with an employee is not legally sufficient if you want to fire them for persistent poor performance/poor behaviour in the future. In Australia you generally need a paper trail. And this is a good thing, for 2 reasons:

1. If the warning is legitimate, it prevents the employer from firing you without giving you a chance to improve/remedy the behaviour. This provides protection that many sole traders and small businesses do not have. If you utilize the services of a doctor or lawyer, you aren't obligated to give them written warnings if you find their performance isn't up to scratch. You just don't go back to them.

2. If the warning is *not* legitimate, you'll have written proof that you can bring before a mediator/judge. Written warnings with vague allegations that don't merit termination have been used against employers in the past.

Morgu wrote:The real reason managers are uncomfortable when an employee refuses to sign is because the manager is afraid they might have to contend with an investigation into themselves. No other reason.


I don't agree that is the only reason. Refusing to acknowledge that you have even been given a warning just portrays you as wanting to be a PitA.

Morgu wrote:A person's behavior is determined by their character, which was formed from past experience. If a person's own family cannot change an individual's character, what makes managers/companies/etc think a piece of paper with some moron's signature on it will?


Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Either way, I'd argue that an employee has the right to be informed that there is an issue, and go through a formal performance management procedure, before getting the boot. I understand that in reality such procedures can be used to bully and hassle adequately performing employees, but it's still preferable to them being fired without warning, which is what would have happened if there was no legal requirement for a system of warnings and performance management.

Doing a write up is always an insult to the individual being written up. Always. If the company was interested in fixing the problem, they would not be doing a write up. Write ups are used to cover the company's ass, nothing else.


I agree to an extent that write-ups are done to 'cover the company's ass', simply because verbal warnings are usually not considered 'real' warnings if you do end up needing to terminate someone, for the same reason verbal contracts are hard to enforce.

Morgu wrote:A manager/supervisor/etc who does a write up is creating a hostile situation, and placing the employee into a position from which the employee's only choice is to either hire an expensive suit wearing fast talker (lawyer) or lose employment and all which that means.


Those aren't the only choices. If the warning is legit you can improve your behaviour. If it's bullshit, you lay low and look for another job, since management is likely gunning for you.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby Slade » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:05 pm

Slade wrote:
TDG wrote:I'd be looking for another job if I got written up for anything.

I'd take that shit personally and see it as a clear sign of disrespect by my employer.

But that's me.


Always remember, if they are writing you up, they've already decided to fire you. They just need a paper trail in case you try to sue for unlawful termination. If you are fired, as opposed to laid off, their unemployment fund contributions won't go up. Some companies won't bother with firing you, and just lay you off when things get slow.


Also, keep in mind that the paper trail can be used to justify putting you on a layoff list. In the US, layoffs are the "safe" way to fire underperformers. You get to can the 10-20% of the bottom, wait 6-12 months, claim business has improved since the layoff and you hire their replacements.

I've only once ever seen someone get fired for cause in Corporate America. The project the guy was on went into crunch mode and it was his fault. He had a vacation scheduled but was told to clean up his mess first as it was a bottleneck for the whole project. So he called in sick for the week. When he returned he was asked to provide a doctor's note. When he couldn't, he was fired on the spot. This was at a Fortune 100 company.

Everyone else I know who got dejobbed was laid off. And you almost never see good performers get their walking papers, unless their whole team or division is eliminated for business reasons.
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Re: disciplinary action / write ups

Postby Slade » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:11 pm

thenamelessone wrote:Those aren't the only choices. If the warning is legit you can improve your behaviour. If it's bullshit, you lay low and look for another job, since management is likely gunning for you.


I've never known anyone put on probation who recovered. They never get removed from "probation" (AKA "improvement needed") and invariably end up on the layoff list.

Something big companies do when you are put on the layoff list and are given 60 days notice is that they encourage you to apply for another job in the company. I've never met anyone who was able to find another job in the company. It was so obvious that it was a waste of time that many didn't even bother trying, they would instead focus 100% on finding a new job somewhere else.
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