Sorry about the delayed response here Eddie, it's been a hectic week and I didn't have time to get back to you.
EddieS wrote: There is no inert nature. 'no thing' cannot exist. If no thing did exist, it would be nothing. So it can't. Nature abhors a vacuum.
I'm making the distinction between living and non-living things and that there are different rules for each. For example there is no order in a river. It just follows least resistance and has no “pull” to make any particular pattern. Same with a rock it just forms whatever shape the forces of nature inflict on it.
Order is an active process that only applies to living things or is a result of living things and it leads to structure and function, a river or a rock has no particular structure and no function. Living systems do so they operate under a different set of rules.
There are obviously different levels of order, like say comparing a child's drawing up to say a Carravaggio. We can distinguish levels of order by complexity and efficiency, often there's a trade off between them but just as a general rule a higher structure is more complex and a higher function is more efficient.
We know living systems have very high levels of order, of magnitudes higher than the results of living systems.
EddieS wrote: There is as you say, positive and negative growth. Or order and chaos. But wherever there is order, chaos is embedded inside it, around it, or on its surface. Wherever there is chaos, there is order embedded. Your perfect mirror surface, is a war zone of microbes. Your sterile surface is in constant strain from casimir forces, and quantum effects.
Reality embraces both sides of the paradox simultaneously. Always. It favours neither. Neither can exist alone. They define each other every step of the way. So you could say chaos is order, and order is chaos. This is your definition of chaos and order btw. Some other school of thought may see what you define as chaos as perfect harmony and order.
This concept is long hinted at in various ways. Yin yang, samsara, god and the devil and so on.
Yes this is very true, it's the duality of the physical world, nothing exists without its opposite and sometimes they co-exist in proximity.
EddieS wrote: As far as the irreducible complexity in natural systems poking holes in evolution. Its just one such anomaly. Flagella motors for instance are a more readily studied system than a whales navigation. Due to apparent simplicity. Intelligent design, or evolution, it all fails to prove the unprovable. Or to know the unknowable.
Mystery will always be with us. Mystery carries a unique charm. In this way, not knowing can be the greater knowledge.
This is where it gets controversial because people have strong opinions on this so I can only go with my opinion and how I see it.
I don't believe the PTB actually believe in evolution other than as something to feed to the masses. They seem to have their own rituals, secret knowledge, codes and deities. Evolution is constantly being pushed as something it isn't to everyone else. It is taught uncritically in schools and the evidence for it, or lack of it, is either exaggerated or simply avoided. It's usually taught with illustrations with various species showing arrows pointing from one to another, or some small similar bone structure between to species or the famous one of primates gradually evolving into a human. They fail to point out that there aren't any actual fossil records to show any of this and it's all just speculation.
Dawkins is another example of this, he constantly refers to evolution as a “scientific fact” despite knowing that it's not, or at least he should know that it's not. No self-respecting scientist would refer to it as a fact even if they believe in evolution. It has none of the scientific rigour we would expect to see for it have that kind of status. Yet as the most vocal and well known atheist he somehow gets away with selling snake-oil like this, something that should completely discredit anything else he says after that.
So it really comes down to choice, it's up to the individual to decide their perspective and see where it takes them. Either you believe in evolution and see life as a result of unguided Darwinian processes or you believe in design and see life as the result of a designer or some kind of intelligent process.
I take the perspective that it is the result of design and so look at living systems as the result of a very high level of design. From there conclude that there is a vast intelligence underlying all living systems on a scale we have not even come close to in our designs. Who or what this creative intelligence is obviously an unanswerable question but we can conclude some of the characteristics of this creator based on what we see in living systems. We already have a field of science, Systems Biology, looking at living systems from an engineering perspective so why not look at living systems for the common characteristics of a designer?
Getting back to the original topic of “order out of chaos” I would argue that this is a characteristic of the designer (I'm using the word "designer" very loosely here, I'm not talking about religion or a particular god or gods). And that we as humans replicate this process in our designs and that we have a particular reaction to higher levels of order.
EddieS wrote: I recommend reading the upanishads of you love contemplating paradoxes.
I will look into these, thanks.